Instagram Interview with Dr. Lockhart
Dr. Beck: So, Dr. Lockhart is a pediatric psychologist, and she's the owner of A New Day, Pediatric Psychology in San Antonio, Texas. There she is. She joined. Here we go. And she's a mom of two, and we are both really excited to have all of you here today to talk about how to teach your young children about anti-racism. There she is.
Dr. Lockhart: Hello!
Dr. Beck: Hello, Dr. Lockhart. How are you?
Dr. Lockhart: Hello, Dr. Beck. I’m doing great.
Dr. Beck: We're laughing because my last name is her maiden name.
Dr. Lockhart: Yeah, I love it, I love it.
Dr. Beck: Yeah, so this was just meant to be. So, we have a lot of questions that I got, and so I just want to jump right in because I know there's many of you who are eager to hear Dr. Lockhart’s answers. So, some of them may have some overlap, but we're gonna try to get through all of them. So, the number one question that I basically got was a parent asked, I have diverse books now. But how do I explain race and more specifically teach anti-racism to my child? And I got that question ranging for kids who are age three, four, five, six, and seven.
Dr. Lockhart: That's a great, great question.
Dr. Beck: Maybe start with the younger and maybe older.
Dr. Lockhart: And then go up. Yes, so, you know, that's great that you have the books. It's great that you have the movies, the toys, have a variety of different looking and culturally represented dolls. And then I think a big part of that is then drawing attention to your children and what they look like and noticing those kinds of things because as we know-- well, you may not because a lot of people were surprised by this, and actually I had to dig back up in my old grad school stuff to remember this is that kids as young as six months of age notice racial differences.
Dr. Beck: Hold on two seconds. I just had my son pop in here. Oh, I see all of the things you picked. Thank you for showing me. I’m gonna be downstairs as soon as I can, as soon as I'm done with this. Then we can have that maybe for afternoon snack. We'll have to wait for that. Go be with daddy, go in there. Go, you may close the door. Sorry. Right, as soon as we're both off of our call we'll come be with you. So sorry about that.
Dr. Lockhart: No, it's okay. We can totally relate.
Dr. Beck: You know, at home. All right, so go ahead.
Dr. Lockhart: So, kids as young as six months do notice racial differences. Okay, so this colorblind notion is not true. And by age three they will notice and comment on those differences. And then if there is no education and intervention they will start to develop racial bias by age four. Okay? So, keeping that mind, people say, well, my kid is-- let's keep them innocence and naïve and colorblind. Well, but they're not. They are aware. They're just not placing negative judgments on racial differences unless they're learning it from us. Okay?
Dr. Beck: There's a difference between keeping children innocent versus keeping them ignorant.
Dr. Lockhart: Exactly, exactly, very well said. And so, one of the ways that you can do that is I had a podcast a couple weeks ago, and what the host was doing with her child was she was saying, well, what color is your skin? Let's talk about your skin color. And he's like, “It's peach.” And then she's like, “Yeah.” And she's like, “what about mine?” He's like, “You're dark peach.” And everybody was like shades of peach. And so, being able to at least be aware of that, and then if you have someone of a different color that's a friend or a family member to be able to talk about those kinds of things and just to increase their awareness of that. So, from like 2, 3 you can start just having that awareness of those discussions that we all are different. Our hair is different. Our skin color is different. We look different. Eye colors are different. And just to be able to draw their attention to it. And if they notice it, say, “Yeah, his skin is brown, and yours is peach.” Or, “Yes, his skin is black and yours is white.” Whatever it is, it's just to kind of have those discussions, and then it's not this taboo thing.
Dr. Beck: Embrace those differences.
Dr. Lockhart: Right, 'cause they're noticing it anyway.
Dr. Beck: Yes, they are.
Dr. Lockhart: And then kind of as-- so then as they get older and their language becomes more advanced that's when you can have more maybe discussions about specific books about different cultural groups and their heritage, including your own. I think a lot of times people from, who are white have backgrounds in Scotland and Ireland, and a lot of the clients that I talk to when I ask them what's your ethnic background. And they're like I'm just white. I’m like, no, no, you're not. And so, educating them on your background and celebrating your background too, you know, why you eat the foods that you do or maybe the style of dress or the accents. You know, movies that come from where you are from and celebrating your cultural heritage as well and then being able to celebrate the heritage of various cultural groups so that they understand that. So, taking them to like museums and little figures, like books on black women and black men, for example, who contributed to society, inventors, musicians, artists, those kinds of things. And that's what I would say is that you just continue to build on that as they get older. And then as they're into school age, 5 to 7, is making sure that their school is accurate in terms of what they're teaching historically. Most schools don't. Most schools do not. And so, advocating for the history and all of those kinds of things that your kids is learning so that they're actually getting accurate history as well and that you're teaching those things on their academic and intellectual level once they're school age as well.
Dr. Beck: Oh, I think that was excellent. Thank you. All right, let's get the next question. How do you explain protests to children?
Dr. Lockhart: Great question. So, I think we're mixing up protests and riots and all those kinds of things, right? And they're very different.
Dr. Beck: Yes. People ask protest, riots, looting.
Dr. Lockhart: Yes, right, looting is bad. Rioting is bad. In and of itself, it's illegal. Protests are a constitutional right. We have a right to protest. And so, being able to explain to kids that protests are when people are angry or frustrated about something, and they want to make sure their voices are heard. And just like when I say, hey, you want green beans for lunch? And you're like, no, you are making a protest. You want to make sure I know what you like and don't like. People who are protesting right now they're protesting 'cause they don't feel like they’ve been heard, and they want to make sure their voices are elevated, and that's why they're doing that. Sometimes protests can go into rioting and looting because people are being quieted or shut down or because it gets out of control, just like you might have a tantrum and start rolling around on the floor and start throwing things it's because it's gotten out of control 'cause you don't feel like you’ve been heard. So, again, you're trying to relate it to how they might see it so they can start to empathize or relate or kind of see, oh, okay, now, I get it.
Dr. Beck: Right, so, you can like just make it a little bit more relatable for them.
Dr. Lockhart: Exactly, exactly.
Dr. Beck: Yeah, I think that's a great language to use for that. So, next question would be, well, how do you explain all of like when people are driving out in their area and everything is boarded up? “Mommy, why are all of the stores with boards on them?”
Dr. Lockhart: Well, I think that's where you can say the same things about there are a lot of-- and, of course, depends on their age, but there are a lot of things going on right now in our society where people are not feeling safe. And some stores are closed for now because of it. Now, again, I have very strong feelings about kids under the age of 10 knowing too many specific details because I think it's just too much for them to handle. Our kids are very concrete and literal in their thinking, and if they're hearing about police brutality and people getting murdered and all of this rioting and killing, that's way too much. And it will cause them to have a sense of feeling unsafe. So, I would say keep it very general and keep it very basic and kind of like how you would describe the whole Covid situation that there's this virus going on outside. It's very contagious. We're not safe, and we want to make sure that we keep you safe. The stores are boarded up because there's a lot of things that are going on right now that people are unhappy about. And so, some of those stores are boarded up right now because people don't feel safe.
Dr. Beck: Yeah, I think the main thing to convey is that they are safe and that you're there to keep them safe, and that's why I adore you, Dr. Lockhart, when I went searching for someone who could explain this difficult topic, you really very much aligned with this 'cause I think it is-- you have to be careful with the trauma that you can induce in a child explaining to them about the murders of what's going on. And so, that's very much-- and that leads me to my next question how do you talk to your kids about the people who have died?
Dr. Lockhart: Well, I don't think they should be knowing so much about it, honestly, you know like I mentioned is that-- my kids are 7 and 10. And they don't know specifics at all about it, but it's also because they're not on You Tube and online all the time. And so, the things that they are watching are pre-recorded shows on Netflix and You Tube. What they are aware of, because we're black and we talk about it because they're aware of it, is racism and racial differences and those kinds of things about how our people have been treated historically. They're aware of that in general, but in terms of the specific types of killings and those kinds of things going on they don't know about it. And I think that if we're talking about the really little ones, up until age 10 and 11, I don't like going into graphic detail about that kind of stuff. I just think it's not appropriate.
Dr. Beck: Yeah, they're not able to handle it emotionally. I mean, let alone most adults are having difficulty with it. Alright, our next question, so when you don't live in a diverse neighborhood how do you teach [SOUNDS LIKE: diversity?]
Dr. Lockhart: That's a great question. I've been getting that a lot lately. You find opportunities to expose your kids to that. So, when we can travel, to travel. Being able to go to different cultural events and festivals. When you go to different restaurants that are of different ethnicities educating them about where those things are from, learning the language, surrounding yourself by people who are different from you. And so, but it has to be more of an effort because if you're insulated in that kind of way it's going to be an effort. And, again, it's not the effort where you get a token black friend because we don't appreciate that. But it's about reaching out to people and being able to expose your kids to a variety of people and cultures so that it's not such a weird thing or such a surprise to them when they actually do it.
Dr. Beck: Yes, for sure, I mean, my husband and I, we love to travel for food. If we have to drive two hours to a great restaurant we will. So, like, we expose our kids to Hot Pot to Beef and Bop to southern food. So like our kids are seeing different kinds of food, and food is a great way to expose your children to different cultures, to different people. And just the way you get them excited about it too is I have a variety of books. I have one book on how to teach Beef and Bop, and it's like a cute children’s book. And my kids were so excited to finally try Beef and Bop when we did it. So, I think books are that tool to kind of help you start to have that discussion, expose them. And when you take them to those cultural events or to those restaurants, you know, that's a great place to start. But you're right, you do have to--
Dr. Lockhart: Well, and even to explain the cultural roots of the food. You know, like I'm from the West Indies, from the Caribbean. And so, I’ll educate my kids about different foods that I cook and why it was created. You know, what was the origin of that? And so, it's cool because every culture, every food has a origin story in a sense. And so, educating them on that gives them a sense of who those people are any why they created it.
Dr. Beck: I love that. I literally just had the discussion with my kids last night 'cause we were making pilaf. And they said, “Well, where does pilaf come from?” And I said, “Let's look it up and let's talk about it.” So, it was a great discussion. Alright, so, as this is happening during Covid how can we do something if we don't feel comfortable going out to a protest? I think we should probably follow up with that. The first one is what age should a child go to a protest?
Dr. Lockhart: Okay, so, first one is the protest and the ages. I've seen-- I've had a lot of friends and clients of mine who they’ve gone to educational protests like on a college campus or a school campus where students and children are talking and speaking about under-represented groups. And I think those are often really good ones for little kids to go to if you want to expose them to those kinds of things because it's not like the ones in the streets where there's tons of people and it's very unpredictable. So, I would say that for the younger ones, the ones in those kinds of settings might be really good and appropriate. And it's a really good educational opportunity for them. But I don't think everyone needs to go to a protest. I think we also have to pay attention to our personality, our family values, our children’s personality. Some kids may want to learn more about different cultures and racism through reading about it, through learning about it, through the foods we're talking about, through videos, through talking to other people, and writing letters to donate to a cause and why we're donating to the cause that we can't assume that everybody will go to a protest or feels comfortable. I don't do protests. That's not just my personality, but I've done a lot of other things in terms of education and using that and awareness to build that. And that's the platform that I choose to use. So, there is no one right way to do it, but it's about doing something and not just staying silent.
Dr. Beck: Right, and I think it really depends on going to a protest. You have to know your child. Some children are very overwhelmed by crowds of people. And so, that can be really scary. And so, you have to know your child and whether or not they'd be okay. But I love the example of like finding a more controlled, more predictable protest to go to like a college campus. Yeah, that's a great suggestion. So, where do we go from here? People keep saying how I don't-- a lot of people are saying we don't want momentum to stop, but we have a responsibility. How do we keep it going?
Dr. Lockhart: That's a great question. I know when this all started, was it three weeks ago now? That was my concern. I was like, great, people are putting black squares and they're putting all these things. And everybody blah, blah, and I'm like, okay, in another week it'll be not trending anymore, right? But that's not happening, and I'm happy to hear that. And I think that where we go from here is that you put pressure on those institutions that you put your money into that you are a part of to do more about this stuff. So, like, for example, there's an online boutique that I love, but I've always been just low-key kind of angry that they never have anyone that looks like me at all, ever. And people were putting pressure on them about that. And they finally said, “Okay, we recognize that this is happening.” And they actually took active attempts to change it. And it's actually in place now. So, I would say that the way, where we go from here is that in every place that you're in, every group that you're in, just start allowing your voice to be heard and allowing that minority voice to be heard and represented in everything, whether it's schools, whether it's in the history books, whether you're in the fashion industry, you're a blogger, you're a lifestyle, any of those kinds of things, podcast guests. You know, I've had a few children’s retailers reach out to me saying they want me to teach some things on their platform because they realize none of their instructors have been black. To be able to have other people and other voices represented and then having models on your page represented from different groups. So, it's doing that. It's continuing it that it's not just a trend that you can continue that, and you put pressure on those people to continue doing that.
Dr. Beck: Yeah, send messages to the companies that you like buying from and say, “I want to see more representation.” I think that's a great way to start. And even for your older children to start doing that, for them, if they're online-- [OVERLAPPING] to write letters and everything.
Dr. Lockhart: And the other thing too is to educate yourself. There's a lot of influencers and psychologists who've reached out to me, and they posted stuff. And they're learning things they never got exposed to. And I would say keep doing that. There's a lot of resources about the true history of slavery, about things that happened in Tulsa and what's happening there, or the Central Park Five.
Dr. Beck: Or where the Statue of Liberty actually-- what was the whole purpose of the Statue of Liberty, that it wasn’t actually for immigrants. It was a celebration of the end of slavery. People don't know that.
Dr. Lockhart: Right, right, and so these are things that-- we don't learn about that. So, I would say to continue this is like educate yourself on the little known pieces of history. And that way you can feel equipped, and you can educate your kids. And that's how you develop more of an open mind and you're not just on the sidelines waiting for things to change.
Dr. Beck: So, those are great. I feel like we skipped a few questions. If my child overheard the news and saw the news hurting people, how do you explain that to your child?
Dr. Lockhart: Yes, so it's gonna happen, and they're gonna probably hear and oversee it. I think that's where you explain 'cause if you’ve had the discussion with them about race and about differences and how there are-- in this country black people, for example, have been treated poorly because of the color of their skin. In our family, we don't want to treat people that way, and we choose not to treat people that way. But not everybody believes that. And so, because of that, a lot of times black people feel like they're being targeted or being hurt by the police. And so, that's what's been happening. And that's why these protests are happening is because black people are wanting it to stop. They're wanting to stop being hurt by the police. And so, that's where you can kind of make it very plain for them, especially when they're younger. When they're older you can start to even educate them about why there's such this tension between the police and blacks because there is historical reasons for that. And so, the slave patrol is what happened during slavery, and that historical trauma and racial trauma is totally real and stays with people. So, I think that's where you can start to educate them, especially if they’ve been accidentally exposed or when they become a little bit older and they're ready to hear it.
Dr. Beck: What about it happens 'cause like now I've had people come in and say, well, now my child is afraid-- [OVERLAPPING]
Dr. Lockhart: That's where I think we go back to our gentle parenting approaches and really validate that. Of course you feel unsafe, of course you feel scared. Lots of people feel that way as well too, and you're getting a lot of information that makes you feel uncomfortable. It's the same way I did with my son a couple weeks ago when we decided to finally after 12 weeks engage with our family who was also isolating. And he said I feel uncomfortable. And I said I feel uncomfortable too. And he's like so then we can be uncomfortable together? I’m like, yeah, we sure can. And then you can choose to hug them, or you could choose not to.
Dr. Beck: I love that. And you're just validating him and letting him feel comfortable to actually have that open dialogue-- my mom feels the same as me. It is uncomfortable.
Dr. Lockhart: Exactly. Right, but the same thing with all this stuff of feeling unsafe too is telling them, of course you feel unsafe because you saw something really scary. But let's talk about it and really encouraging them to continue speaking about it.
Dr. Beck: And then I had another mom come in and chime in. How do you feel about some of these companies taking away the police officers out of their toy sets, teaching kids that police officers are bad?
Dr. Lockhart: Say that again.
Dr. Beck: A parent came in and asked about how do you feel about some of these toy sets that are-- toy companies that are coming out taking police officers out of their toy sets and not highlighting it on their toys.
Dr. Lockhart: Interesting. I didn't hear that.
Dr. Beck: I think. Don't quote me on this, but Lego had done that.
Dr. Lockhart: Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, I think-- where we can really talk to our kids about that-- well, if you're not really sure and you're not informed then don't just make stuff up, right? So, just do your research and understand what's going on. But my thought is because they're trying to show support and solidarity. That's my thinking. So that if that's kind of where it's coming from you can say a lot of places aren't really sure how to respond to what's going on right now. And they are not trying to isolate-- then they're not trying to look bad. They want to-- they have a product they need to market. And so, many times these companies are gonna try and take a stand but they don't always know what that is supposed to look like. So, because of the issues going on with the police then that's probably why these toy companies are looking at taking that stand. But I would say really looking at what is the context and really trying to help explain to them why do you think they would do something like given everything that's going on? And then really find out and get from your child what they might come up with. Well, they probably are taking the police out because the police are hurting people. Yeah, that might be why, and I'm wondering if that's what they're doing too.
Dr. Beck: So how do you make your child feel safe about police officers?
Dr. Lockhart: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a tough question because I mean I think that's where you validate whatever they're feeling. And you just say that the police are here to protect and to serve us, but that's not always been everybody’s experience. And so, I don't think there's any one right answer.
Dr. Beck: I think that's a great--
Dr. Lockhart: Yeah.
Dr. Beck: Well, I think this was great. I think this was really helpful. If nobody has any questions along here, I think we got to everybody’s questions. That was excellent, Dr. Lockhart. I really do appreciate you taking the time out of your busy day to answer all of these questions.
Dr. Lockhart: Thank you too for having me here, Dr. Beck. I really appreciate it.
Dr. Beck: Of course, thank you so much.
Dr. Lockhart: Bye.
Dr. Beck: Thanks for tuning in, everyone.
[End of Interview]